Sunday, October 16, 2011

Is it good to rely on setpoint for corrosion control based on Industry Standard or our own operational experience? What should be the best possible way to establish a meaningful setpoint relationship for corrosion control?

There are instances of defining setpoints like 2 mpy for the coupons installed at the return line of cooling water for characterizing the whole treatment and less than 1 mpy for terming the observed general corrosion rate as "Low" for process circuits based on Industry Practice/International Standard. These setpoints do not always reflect current design criteria including the changes made in original design for future operation. What should be the appropriate relational grading technique from the standpoint of: 1.Asset Owner, 2.Corrosion Control Service Providers (CSP), 3.Process Designer, 4.Corrosion Management Consultants/Auditors and 5.Corrosion Researchers to accommodate "uncertainties" arise during the regular operation?  

10 comments:

  1. Comment posted in "We CAN Control Corrosion in India" Network.

    Participant: C.V.Srinivasan•
    Your question on set point for Corrosion Control Oct 16, 2011
    A combination of research / field trial by researchers / process designers and particular industry standard would be needed.
    Where there is common interest by industry users : pooling of particular process designs / particular industry practies / common evaluation set point can be derived.
    We should recognize the fact : This may not be actually possible with each process design varying with their own adopting corrosion control monitoring evaluation parameters.

    Set point is bound to change once process parameters change or process designers change evaluation parameters or from any change in new corrosion control measures or monitoring locations change.
    Asset Owner has to set initial set point based on research / field trial evaluations for particular process design or corrosion control measures adopted
    Once a fair trial evaluation is completed, each asset owner has to establish a meaninful setpoint relationship - based on particular process design / corrosion control monitoring adopted by him over a period of time
    Industry standard initially helps for this. Process designs may change for particular industry. Corrosion Control measurement or monitoring system may differ from particalr industry to another set of industry.
    Universal adoption of industrial standard done elsewhere may at best be a guiding factor and not the end result giving asset evaluation parameter for the industry
    Hope this helps
    C.V.Srinivasan
    Technical Director

    ReplyDelete
  2. Comment posted in "Corrosion" Network

    Participant: Gabriel Pereyra

    • Dear Manickam,

    As far as I am concerned, from the very first moment you start a project this has to be framed by the right key process indicators (KPI) that helps you monitor the involved corrosion issues. At that moment it is fundamental that you rely on setpoints for corrosion control based on industry standards. I also would add at this stage some specific related field practices that has been proved.
    But then, in order to get the system more efficient against corrosion and profitable, you will have to adjust both the theoretical scope and the field practices. I think the synergy of these two concepts will give you a certain approach to your goals.

    Kind regards,

    Gabriel

    ReplyDelete
  3. Comments posted in "NACE International" network.

    Participant: Lance Scholten

    • Every change plant, unit, variation in weather, flow rate, water treatment, chemical injection, operator can change corrosion rates. Corrosion rates are normally not liner. I use reference material, codes, and personal experience to establish how I am going to set up a corrosion monitoring program (# of UTt, Rt etc) Odd cases:
    1. Plant changed Water treatment companies. The chemicals reacted and blew out 14 tubes in 3 months.
    2. Plant used portable cooling towers in the heat of the summer ended up inadvertently adding chlorides into their Cooling water system (Exchanger tube failures)
    3. Dock line normally operating at ambient temperatures. The lines were pigged after use and were only used monthly. Not considered was in the heat of the summer the pipe reached temperatures over 150F. The line failed from Chloride stress corrosion cracking.
    4. Vertical Sulfuric acid tank built to NACE standards. The plant has slug buildup in the bottom of the tank and puts in a manway per API 510. Hydrogen grooving in now affecting the sidewall above the manway resulting in a CR

    In the real world there are continuously changing factors affecting corrosion rates and other damage mechanisms. Lance Scholten API 510, 570, 563, 571
    16 hours ago

    ReplyDelete
  4. Comment posted in EPC Consultants Professionals.

    Participant: Peter Macalua •

    The question is very relevant and deserves serious attention in the light of concerns
    for buried pipelines and ducts, whether for gas/oil service or cooling seawater.For return cooling water pipeline,whether totally/partially buried/immersed in soil/sand/mud/mixed
    media, the 1mpy should serve as a general guide. However, we all know, that in cathodic
    protection systems, especially DC impressed current system, your pipeline cathodic
    protection level is not uniform all throughout due to many factors. Further, the CP inspector
    should give preferential close attention to areas of stagnant medium,and ingress of corrosive acid medium(the more dilute sulfuric acid is, the more corrosive it is to steel).
    Then he can recommend ingress mitigation by neutralizing the acid,eliminating the ingress
    and/or adopting acid resistant coatings. The inlet cooling seawater line normally is of
    concrete pipes/canals before the sea water intake pump island infrastructure; so normal concerns in this area, are seawater borne algae growth,mullasks/giant urchins,shells,trash,concrete washouts,blockages,etc.
    17 hours ago

    ReplyDelete
  5. Comments Posted in "We CAN Control Corrosion in India" Network:

    Manickam Valliappan • Thanks for your valuable inputs. I would like to quote your observations and see the present position/relevance of such activities in India.

    "A combination of research / field trial by researchers / process designers and particular industry standard would be needed" - Is this kind of interaction established between the industry and research in India? If the process technology is procured from the overseas, what is our present position with regard to collaborating with the research sources identified by the licensor? What will be the involvement of local research institutions/testing agencies?

    "Asset Owner has to set initial set point based on research / field trial evaluations for particular process design or corrosion control measures adopted" - The responsibility of having a research/field trial option lies with the asset owner. This is driven by the fact that the asset owner should have a dedicated setup to plan, design, operate and maintain a suitable corrosion management program. If this is a missing link, reliance on Industry Practice/International Standards seems to be the only choice

    "Where there is common interest by industry users : pooling of particular process designs / particular industry practies / common evaluation set point can be derived" - Joint Industry Research is the key here. There are many corporate bodies in India that have multiple process plants. But having a unified approach seems to be lagging within a single corporate itself.

    "Corrosion Control measurement or monitoring system may differ from particular industry to another set of industry. Universal adoption of industrial standard done elsewhere may at best be a guiding factor" - This is also driven by the fact that the concerned industry should have a proper Corrosion Management setup to see the usefulness of other industry practice, validate it for their purpose and assess the performance to put them in the track of desigining their own system.
    3 days ago

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  6. Comments posted in "We CAN Control Corrosion in India" Network:

    C.V.Srinivasan Chakravarthi Srinivasan • Answering to your specific questions as follows: As reply to your posting on Oct 17

    Question : Is this kind of interaction established between industry and research in India?
    Reply: For specific need, industry and research interaction had taken place - i know of some instances. Some colloborative studies on application of research from National laboratories and specific industry based on need have been done.

    Question : For Process Technology from abroad:
    Reply: Foreign technology process licensor and reseach sources have not had any major interaction with Indian local research institution / testing agencies.
    Question: Asset Owner responsibility:
    Reply: Certainly asset ownder should have dedicated set up available in-house to carry out research /field trial application. Where such in-built facilities have been built-up, some industries do adopt the same. Here also industry practice / industry standards will be used as guiding factor before final switcing to asset owner's own set point establishment based on field trial with his own researcher colloboration studies.

    Question on Joint Industry Research:
    Reply: Agree that pooling from joint industry objective to solve corrosion problems had never taken place in India from sharing or pooling of resources
    within same industry groups.

    Question : on Corrosion Control Measurement or Monitoring System:
    Reply: Large corporate companies with both manufacturing / research establishments (For ex: Indian Oil Corp) have their own Corrosion Management set up.
    Other corporate companies in similar sector (HPCL, BPCL, Reliance etc) or in different sector (Chemical or Steel or Fertilizer etc) may not practice or may not have the same committed objective to share the same.
    Reply : Ex : FAI - Fertilizer Association of India did for many years for common industry purpose of sharing common problems faced by the Fertilizer Industry in association of Ministry of Fertilizers / Industry (Govt of India ) to solve from operation / maintenance problems this forum used to share problems faced by industries together in a quarterly review of sharing / meeting . I know this continued for many years - but this probably got diluted after some years or it lost its focus or did not have the same central committed set up today.
    Hope this helps

    C.V.Srinivasan Nishi Engineers Pvt Ltd Chennai India October 17, 2011

    ReplyDelete
  7. Comments posted in "We CAN Control Corrosion in India" Network:

    Corrosion Management in India • Dear Sir,

    Some of the key points you have presented here indicate:

    1. There is no proper interaction between the process licensor and the research sources. It seems that only a minor proposition of local research resources have been used by the asset owners in India. Taking these points into consideration, how the material issues arise out of failures or any abrupt changes in operation/process envelope will be dealt by the asset owner. The important thing we realize that the availability of dedicated Corrosion Management setup in these companies is minimal.

    2. You have seen two facets of corrosion management in Indian Industries circle. There was an effort in the Fertiliser Industry for solving common problems (this might have helped some of the mid-sized fertiliser units). Now the fertiliser sector growth is influenced by many factors including the focus on upgraded technologies. Do you feel that these factors will in turn affect the material conservation issues?

    3. Recent time we can see a lot on National Exploration Policy (NELP) of Hydrocarbon reserves in India. This kind of sectoral focus may be the driver for conservation efforts. Oil Industries safety Directorate (OISD) has been formed to address all safety and integrity related issues in this sector.

    Do you feel that sector specific awareness is required to achieve overall corrosion control in India? We don't find organizations like TWAD in the public water distribution side approach us for finding better solutions.
    21 hours ago

    ReplyDelete
  8. C.V.Srinivasan Chakravarthi Srinivasan • Corrosion Management in India Oct 24

    Point 1: Interaction between process licensor & research sources in India by asset owner
    Reply : Availability of dedicated set up is definitely needed

    Point 2: Two facets of Corrosion Management in Indian industries
    Reply: Some factors do influence material conservation issues in Fertilizer sector industry

    Point 3: NELP - Hydrocarbon reserves in India & OISD addressing safety & integrity related issues. What about TWAD & Public Distribution set up in India?

    Reply: OISD caters somewhat to Safety aspects for Oil sector industries. Even OISD had not addressed fully the integrity related issues.
    TWAD & public water distribution sector have no set up till date. How can they gear and where will they address corrosion management issues?
    Hope this helps
    C.V.Srinivasan Nishi Engineers Pvt Ltd Chennai Tamil Nadu India Oct 24 2011
    2 hours ago

    ReplyDelete
  9. Jean-Pierre Audouard • I have been working for more than 35 years as a corrosion researcher in a major company producing special stainless steels for all types of industrial applications. During this period, I also developped lots of contacts with end users in order to understand their corrosion problems and consecutively to design proper taylor made corrosion testing programs.
    My conclusion now is that the main and first point is to evaluate corrosion risks from actual process conditions. Every type of industry has its own agressiveness and even for a single industry and a single process, each plant may have its own agressiveness.
    After that the risks are evaluated, and only after that, it is possible to derive set points.
    Most often, set points cannot been defined from industry standards which, in my opinion are only tools to improve the quality of operations to do.
    I have developped a corrosion software named "CorrIntel" wich scientifically explains what are the risks in various process conditions and how to manage these risks by using the right materials or by managing process conditions, etc ...
    You can find some general informations at www.corrosion-corrintel.info
    In addition, let me tell you that I will be present at Stainless Steel World Conference & Expo, Nov 29 - Dec 1 2011 in Maastricht, The Netherlands at stand S 807 where visitors can test the software.
    3 days ago

    ReplyDelete
  10. Manickam Valliappan • Thanks Dr Jean. It is interesting to note the fact that every type of industry has its own aggressiveness. We can not generalise such effects and use it for corrosion assessment. We need to have a dedicated setup for corrosion assessment and the resources like the software systems for scientific explanation of corrosion risks for various processes. If you have a demo for these systems, I request you to share it with the members of this forum.
    29 minutes ago

    ReplyDelete

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