Saturday, September 3, 2011

India - Corrosion Management Survey - A respondent says: Corrosion education is limited to theories. There is no practical education

A respondent of our survey has recorded the following observation for "Which of the following factors do you see for the present flaws/gaps in nationwide corrosion control efforts?"

Others: Corrosion education is limited to theories. There is no practical education.

Participate in our survey http://corrosionmanagementsurvey.in/  and share your observation with other respondents to assist our network in finding a suitable Iron Pillar Way of controlling corrosion in India.




11 comments:

  1. Ishan Patel • How without the knowledge of theory of corrosion can anyone try to deal with it practically?
    The general wisdom of keeping the environment away of metal using paints and coatings does not always help. We all know that.
    The Cathodic and anodic Protection methods are nothing but born from the excellent invetion of mixed potential theories.

    The simple reason for this problem is the education of corrosion needs the knowledge of many subjects simulteneously and those are tried to taught. Then after not much time left for practical education! It can only come by the field experience.
    There is nothing like current education system is not capable of producing fruitful to corrosion control efforts. The attitude should be changed.
    13 hours ago

    Manickam Valliappan • I would like to recall comments posted on the same subject in NACE network:

    What depth of understanding in the subject is required to deal with corrosion control efforts? Training through short term courses can not be equated to a proper graduate/research program in any discipline.

    Is there any discrimination in using the people with knowledge-based education/experience in corrosion and the non-corrosion professionals qualified in corrosion through short-term training programs or having an informal exposure in corrosion control? There is a misconception in using the proper knowledge system for corrosion control jobs. End-users of corrosion control technologies and knowledge systems are the key players deciding the growth of this profession and supporting education system. This growth totally depends on how an end-user manages to fill the knowledge positions and claim corrosion control is achieved.

    12 minutes ago

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  2. Comments posted in NACE Networking Group on Linkedin

    Dr.M.K. Sharma • Practical knowledge on corrosion is available at masters level course at univertity level. However some one should have interest and can start at UG level also. Of coures at training level or deploma level it is not much.
    1 day ago

    Sandy Williamson • We have recognized the gap between practical and theoretical teaching for some time. University and organizations such as NACE provide good instruction and a foundation to corrosion engineering and its control, however the practical side will only come through experience. In an attempt to bridge the gap we offer corrosion modules that teach corrosion control through case histories in the oil and gas industry.
    1 day ago

    Budhadeb Duari • NACE International and SSPC,U.S have done lots of research work on Corrosion.Being an IITian I can say without doubt these two Organisations have more practical approach than any of the IITs in India.
    23 hours ago

    Dr G H Thanki • Unless digested corrosion control knowledge is assimilated and practiced with end users like corporate, who are the suffer of the corrosion impact on safety, productivity and quality of the finished product, NACE International and SSPC,U.S research work on Corrosion do not help to control this menace.
    Your assumption that Corrosion education is limited to theories and there is no practical education in India, which can only be corrected by visiting plants itself and conduct Corrosion Survey & Corrosion Audit (CS & CA).
    Lectures on Corrosion Basics/mechanisms as the precursor to CS & CA to practicing engineers/executives and decision makers (in-house)and followed by CS & CA of plant assets is the only way to have practical education. Professors, many times have in-depth information, without required exposure to the real system.
    My experience with CS & CA to corporate has offered internal satisfaction of 35 years of corrosion related hands-on exposure. Dr.G.H.Thanki
    23 hours ago

    Budhadeb Duari • Dr G H Thanki,please note that NACE International and SSPC,U.S have made their Standards based on Corrosion Survey and Corrosion Audit.NACE Cathodic Protection Standard is regarded as Bible and is followed everywhere in the world.SSPC Standard for Surface is followed everywhere in the world.With due respect to you,I am IITian B.Tech(Hons) and PhD(Engg.) only person in India having both NACE and SSPC Specialist Certification.I am NACE Corrosion Specialist(giving 16 hours examination and passing),NACE Protective Coating Specialist and SSPC Protective Coating Specialist.I am member for BIS MTD 24 (Corrosion Protection Group) and BIS CHD 20 (Paints and Chemical Group).Both the Group have requested to draft new Standards for them.I am Co. Guide for 4 (four) PhD Students.I have only 33 years experience(78 B.Tech(Hons)) on corrosion and coatings.
    21 hours ago

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  3. Manickam Valliappan • @ Dr Budhadeb Duari
    Standards and procedures are aids only. You need to have qualified people to implement these aids. Mechanism for achieving this qualification is the subject of our discussion. If we have a proper procedure with improper managing people, the procedure can not be questioned for its quality. If these aids do not properly address the local conditions, the quality of the subject protocols will be in question for that specific conditions. What efforts with regard to corrosion control have been taken by BIS to normalize the standardization system? There may be several buy-ins from other standards and experience of other countries. Actually collaboration expands our knowledgebase to find appropriate solutions for corrosion problems in India.

    I would like to recall the comments dated 11 July 2011 we have put on http://corrosionmanagementsurvey.in/our-standardization-efforts/. Since you are a member of BIS Standardization Efforts in India, our network would like to know the means available for public address system. I made several attempts to approach BIS authorities. But the response is in question.

    Will Corrosion lead to deleterious effect on the intended purpose: Security of Steel Flush Door Shutters? Draft Bureau of Indian Standards: Steel Flush Door Shutters – Specification has been circulated for public opinion. Last date for comment: 31 Aug 2011

    http://www.bis.org.in/sf/ced/CED11(7663).pdf Our views on the following clauses:

    1. TESTS

    * The following tests shall be conducted on the door shutter in accordance with IS 4020 (Part 1 to 16):

    a) Dimensions and squareness test.
    b) General flatness test.
    c) Local planeness test.
    d) Impact indentation test.
    e) Flexure test.
    f) Edge loading test.
    g) Shock resistance test.
    h) Buckling resistance test
    j) Slamming test.
    k) Misuse test.

    Corrosion and related phenomena are nowhere included in this specification. Our Indian conditions are widespread and its effects on corrosion are evident in saline (coastal) and polluted industrial atmosphere. CECRI has recently updated Corrosion Map of India for atmospheric corrosion. The type of paint used shall be as specified in IS 1477(Part 2) or be of any other type as agreed to between the manufacturer and the purchaser. The colour shall be as agreed between the manufacturer and the purchaser.

    The purpose is not only the colour, it should be the life of shutter by providing a proper control measure. If the awareness is not there for corrosion among the manufacturer and the purchaser, the selection of control measure will be in question. @Members of "We CAN Control Corrosion in India" forum: your active participation in this discussion is solicited for sending our collective inputs to Bureau of Indian Standards.
    18 hours ago

    Budhadeb Duari • BIS has got different Standards Group like MTD 24(Corrosion Protection Group) or CHD 20(Paint Group).Your Steel Flush Door Shutters should be in some Group.Please purchase relevent IS Standard and approach that Group.They will take care of your problem.I request you to join that Group and give your input
    18 hours ago

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  4. Ramesh Nagar • Manickam, Present situation in India is much better than it was in the past. We should continue to make efforts to ensure that tomorrow is better than today.
    2 days ago

    Manickam Valliappan • @ Dr Thanki: It's great to see the efforts made in conducting Corrosion Audit for industries in India. Do you feel that this kind of audit has to be conducted a national agency or an independent service provider/consultant? What is the best mechanism proposed for desiging guidelines, recommending industries to implement and coordinating the whole process for continual review? How far the present legislations in India will help these efforts to control corrosion in India?

    I would like to quote the following lines from the technical paper on Integrated Approach to Handle Corrosion published in Chemical Engineering World, June 2010.

    Legislations in India:

    To provide legislative support for prevention and control of air pollution, the Government of India enacted a central legislation called the Air (Prevention and Control of Pollution) Act, 1981. The Act aims at prevention, control and abatement of pollution. The Government of India has also passed a comprehensive Act for the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986, which covers various aspects of environment including air pollution. One of the mandate of Central Pollution Control Board under the Air Act, 1981 is to lay down standards for the quality of air and emission quantities. The state pollution control boards lay down suitable conditions while granting permission to discharge air pollutants (called consent) in the light of emission standards, developed by the Central Pollution Control Board and subsequently notify through the rules framed under the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986 rules.

    However, none of these acts address the concerns associated with corrosion.

    Do we need to have corrosion prevention act in India to enforce corrosion control and support education system associated with conserving our material resources? Our survey respondents favour introduction of such acts in India http://corrosionmanagementsurvey.in/iron-pillar-dashboard/
    2 days ago

    Manickam Valliappan • @ Mr Ramesh Nagar:
    We are there to support all the efforts through our open source knowledge management platform. Present education system in India is one of the flaws in nationwide corrosion control efforts. Coodination for interaction of various professional bodies in corrosion and associated disciplines can find solutions for many flaws contributing for huge lossess.
    1 day ago

    Steve Logelin • I put together 3 corrosion education modules on linkedin based on my experience in American Industry. Anyone can have a look at the modules. Might be of some help.
    1 day ago

    Manickam Valliappan • @Mr Steve: Thanks for your interest. Please share the link to have more information on the education modules.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Marcello Romagnoli • "In medio stat virtus", theory often (not always) permit to have a general idea of the complex phenomenon of corrosion. Practice permits to go deeply. The right mix of theory and practice is the best.
    11 hours ago

    Manickam Valliappan • Prof, I agree with your point - right blend of theory and practice. When we deal with common problems arising out of core engineering like civil, mechanical, chemical or even metallurgical, no body is saying that it is theoretical to find solutions. But when we (corrosion community) or end-users attempt to solve problems, the first response we see is "Corrosion is highly theoretical to solve". What is the main reason for this situation? Is this focus made by people belong to core engineering in the interest of end-user departments - design, process, operation, maintenance and inspection?
    1 hour ago

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  6. Dr G H Thanki • Manickam, the analogy with medical science, where a surgeon or medicine practitioner, diagnose the decease or the causative factor, he naturally goes to the theoretical part of the system-upset and then either do the surgery or administer the medicine and helps to the affected body to come to near to normal. The first response patient gives is not that "Medical Science is highly theoretical to solve body problem" but enjoys the after effect of the practiced theory. Like that while having executive check-up (corrosion survey) end user is interested to solve the problem and not in theory so we corrosionist should not go to develop only new theories to present the papers but to practice the existing understanding of corrosion mechanism to control corrosion to get the appreciation of sufferers..which I personally feel happy that our experience is useful to corporate world..Thanks
    3 hours ago

    Douglas Iskandar • Manickam, as a painting qc, i sort of stumbled into this industry, but from Just having as job to making it a vocation, I would say that from my point of view, that any one of the individuals that have contributed here, has from a certain point, actually had to look at some kind of corrosion for them to get kick-started in this line. we never actually will understand how & where 'the natural course to return to a stabilized element' will occur because simply, we are either blase about it, or it is someone else's problem, Until, we find ourselves in the situation that we need more information to do something about it. at that stage, when we google it or 'Liked In' it, we will gain access to so many, so many information that will suit our purposes.

    the gist here being, 'gotta know where you're comin' from to get where you're going.'
    2 hours ago

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  7. Manickam Valliappan • @Dr Thanki: I like the Medical Science analogy. There are two cases. 1. Development of new models/theories to solve future problems. 2. Utilisation of existing models to solve present day problems. If we keep on developing new theories without seeing the validity of existing models, the sufferers (industries) will be confused for the direction they have to follow. This confusion aids the makeshift personnel (corrosion issues handled by non-corrosion groups) to propose solutions with uncertainties. These uncertainties are the prime source for ineffective corrosion control. There will be an interlinking component for providing the best basis for case 1 development from case 2 observation.

    Do we conduct research for the simulated industrial conditions/failures? It is not the question of simply changing temperature or concentration of inhibitors or materials. The success of any research study for extending product life cycle totally depends on how effective we simulate the conditions, conduct the tests under a controlled atmosphere and interpret in a meaningful way to address application issues for a variety of industrial conditions. This simulation comes from the knowledgebase available within the industry/sector/country/globe. The strength of knowledgebase in handling the complex issues is geography specific development and depends on the personnel available within the setup.

    There is a huge gap between researchers and the practicing engineers; industries and academic institutions (students choosing corrosion discipline). This gap is evident from the utilisation of people who have got proper education in corrosion.

    Our network member Mr Ishan, Postgraduate Student in Indian Institute of Technology, Roorkee has brought the following observation: Can anybody suggest how to start in the field of corrosion as a fresher?? I have Masters degree in corrosion engineering. There are 12 students passed out from my class of 2011 of corrosion engineering at IITR but none of them could get in to the field of corrosion. And eventually they seem to be leaving this field.

    http://wecancontrolcorrosioninindia.blogspot.com/2011/08/our-network-discussion-can-anybody.html

    What is our answer to these aspirants?
    16 minutes ago

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  8. Comments posted in NACE network

    Budhadeb Duari • Since I am in pipeline field carrying oil,gas and water,I can comment on the same.With due respect to all IITs,I can say that corrosion studies in IITs is many years behind Universities in U.S.This is hard fact and please donot mind for the same.Recently I happen to hear a lecture by a very renounced Professor of IIT who is teaching corrosion and cathodic protection in IIT has remarked that cathodic protection potential can not be exceeded 850 mv for pipeline protection.Considering blistering by hydrogen evolution,companies (IOC,GAIL etc and also US companies) going as high as 1200mv.Generally,in IIT for corrosion engineering MSc are doing M.Tech and subsequently PhD.Corrosion Engineering is not only corrosion chemistry but electrical,mechanical,metallurgy engineering etc.Please pardon me for my remarks.Indian Oil,GAIL Pipeline Division are strictly applyiny corrosion theory into practice.Those who are doing M.Tech,PhD in corrosion can join IOCL,GAIL,Reliace Industries,EIL(SMMS Division),CECRI,NML,Jamshedpur etc Best regards.
    1 day ago

    Budhadeb Duari • Further NTPC,DVC are having corrosion Laboratories.Now they are very serious about corrosion.In fact,DVC is going invest 100 crores for Laboratory for vibration analysis and corrosoin.So,there are oppertunities there.Regards
    1 day ago

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  9. Ashok Mathew • In my opinion, the Corrosion Department should be allowed to function independently and report to the higher management similar to Safety department. The corrosion department's actions and recommendations should not be limited by the operations's convenience. Unfortunately, this is not the case in many places. Also, professionals who understand corrosion philosophy should be encouraged.
    1 day ago

    Manickam Valliappan • Ashok: Independency for the success of any field depending on the complexity. I am just recalling our comments posted in NACE network.

    Prof Marcello, I agree with your point - right blend of theory and practice. When we deal with common problems arising out of core engineering like civil, mechanical, chemical or even metallurgical, no body is saying that it is theoretical to find solutions. But when we (corrosion community) or end-users attempt to solve problems, the first response we see is "Corrosion is highly theoretical to solve". What is the main reason for this situation? Is this focus made by people belong to core engineering in the interest of end-user departments - design, process, operation, maintenance and inspection?

    Corrosion is complex in nature. How do we approach corrosion problems and attempt to find solutions? This is the basis for deciding the complexity as well as independency.
    1 day ago

    Laxminarayan Das • I agree with Mr. Ashok Mathew. Regarding No practical education in India, I disagee with Mr. Manickam. However Extent and coverage of Practical Training Programme is not satisfactory. The only reason behind this is

    1. How many End users are having Corrosion Control Departments in India?
    2. Who is taking decision about corrosion control activity either in PMC or at end Users. Are they Capable or are they biased????
    3. Corrosion is such a wide subject, covering practical for every aspect(Under different capsule course) requires audience and sponsorers.
    4. Anti-corrosive product/service suppliers in India take less interest, since they and their customers(not all) deliberately wanted corrosion to enhance their personal wealth accumulations. Where as they talk a lot about corrosion in all conferences where they buy customers un-ethically.

    The best method is End User suffering from Corrosion in-consultation and in-collaboration with their Anti-corrosive product/service vendors should organise massive Training workshop on free of cost to their contractors/vendors to suit the specific requirements as applicable to them. However all care need to be taken to ensure that Anti-corrosive product/service vendors do not utilise these events to promote their product/Technologies only.

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  10. Manickam Valliappan • Mr Laxminarayan Das: Since the focus you have highlighted is for interfacing corrosion control suppliers with the end-users, I would like to quote the following lines from a publication entitled Our Iron Pillar Way to resolve corrosion management challenges in India, Chemical Engineering World, Feb 2010 (copy is available for your reading: http://corrosionmanagementsurvey.in/our-publications/)

    Our focus is always on using the existing resources to find a suitable “Iron Pillar Way” of Corrosion Management. Various functions involved in the functional analysis of corrosion management are: Predict-Design-Apply-Monitor-Control-Assess.

    Reliability and effectiveness of this functional analysis is centered on the flow of information from one component to another and the quality of data it takes in for various processes. Any broken link or avoidance of any component leads to “Uncertainties” that reduce confidence levels of finding “Optimal” solutions to corrosion problems.

    Assessment of Design-Apply-Monitor-Control processes is very crucial in the whole functional analysis to verify and provide inputs for strengthening Predict process. The main driver for the successful assessment process is: Who is doing what is needed – Application of corrosion control measures executed by Technology Providers (materials suppliers; corrosion control supply houses – chemical treatment, cathodic protection and protective coatings; monitoring technologies-corrosion, inspection and process; management systems-prediction, corrosion management and asset integrity systems) needs to be reviewed by Technology Assessors. These assessors should come from in-house corrosion technology experts available with the asset owner or the non-corrosion management group ably supported by an independent review panel comprises external experts in various disciplines.

    If the anti-corrosion suppliers have the liberty to sell whatever they have, the endusers should be equipped with a proper setup for assessing corrosion control. As far the national focus is concerned, it should be a collaborative effort.
    23 hours ago

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  11. Manickam Valliappan • @Mr Laxminarayan Das: I would like to quote your concern "4. Anti-corrosive product/service suppliers in India take less interest, since they and their customers(not all) deliberately wanted corrosion to enhance their personal wealth accumulations. Where as they talk a lot about corrosion in all conferences where they buy customers un-ethically".

    Technologies and methods for corrosion control are continual efforts made by the concerned parties - academicians, researchers, service providers and end-users. When a control service provider (CSP) goes to Company A for solving A's problem, A should be comfortable in giving CSP the present conditions and experience with other systems. If the conditions are not properly presented, we can not demand the best control means from the CSPs. Lack of resources in terms of using makehift personnel to formulate, select and assess the control measures is the prime cause for failure of technologies applied in the field. Technologies suitable for site A may not hold good for site B. The success of technology is totally driven by the approach of site management.

    If the companies are unethical in using non-corrosion professionals for corrosion management jobs, the inefficient technologies will find its own way in the market. This is primarily effected by the attitude of companies employing people for corrosion jobs. There are many instances in the job market - people work for the technologies, people work for the company, people work for the economics and the worst option: people work for people where the system is no way linked with the efforts on corrosion control. It is the question of "Return on Investment" on the related resources or getting relieved of pressure from the Management Directives for filling the positions.

    Design, selection, application and assessment capabilities of end-users decide what type of practical education is important for corrosion control and useful for developing meaningful technologies.
    4 hours ago

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